April Lon Gon - Former tard wrangler of Spoony, future Bethesda C&D target

[Whybother]

I've never understood why so many people think thaco is so impossible to understand... it's just fucking basic subtraction.

[Guest]

>using math to play games
Boring.

[Guest]

>using math to play games
Boring.

Counter-argument: See every kind of gambling ever if you actually hope to win.

[Kugelfisch]

BTW are there ANY German women left not defiled by Muhammed's children?

Plenty more than you've got white bitches that didn't get BLACKED in your 56% hellhole.

(Though it's not really an American forum...sorta)

No? Oh, I thought it was started by one.

An English child, a fat burger and a cuckold Swede. So about 33%.

[Le Redditeur]

I've never understood why so many people think thaco is so impossible to understand... it's just fucking basic subtraction.

It's simple enough to use, but it's janky as shit to understand why.

3rd Edition attack roll: d20 + base attack bonus + modifiers >= target's CA (hit)
2nd Edition THACO: d20 - modifiers + target's AC - THACO <= 0 (hit)

Notice that you have to subtract the positive modifiers and add the armor (which could be in the negatives), because you need to arrive in the target number to hit the AC 0. It probably made sense back then when they used the 1st Edition attack x AC tables, because Gary Gygax saw armor as something to subtract from the attack roll instead of the target number to hit. It follows that considering AC as the target number makes calculations less confusing to understand, and also allows you to introduce the Difficulty Class concept and for it to work exactly as an attack rolls (in fact, they could have just renamed AC to "Defense DC" and it would be the same shit).

Me, I like to complain more about the saving throw system in earlier editions, where saving against a lightning bolt had different difficulties depending if it came from a magical trap (save vs Poison & Death Rays), a lightning bolt spell (save vs Spell) or a blue dragon's breath (save vs Dragon Breath), when the action behind the save is the same (basically dodging the fuck out of the bolt).

[VoiceOfReasonPast]

Yeah, they went kinda batshit with different saving throws in early editions. All, at least partially, so that Fighters had the best chances against dragon breaths or something.
And I guess at least with Save vs Spell, you could argue that say a spellcaster might neutralize the attack with magic or some shit.

I've stumbled upon some retroclones who actually use the "lower AC is better" model while avoiding hit tables and using more modern attack bonuses. It's basically "Your modifiers + Target AC >= 20". AC basically works like it's intended to be (AC 0 is the optimum, so every value above that makes the target easier to hit).
I would say I'm baffled official version of D&D didn't simplify it like that, but Gary and friends must've loved big dumb tables.

[Whybother]

I guess with modifiers it can get confusing. When I played we really only ever bothered with basic thaco systems. Thaco - AC = target number, roll 20. It was always very simple in my mind. Modifiers always just got added to the d20 roll.

[Tony Schiavone]

Dave Arneson (the forgotten hero of creating RPGs) once said: "Make up whatever system you want. In the end, it's just math."

I think they did that back in the day to keep their shit proprietary. It worked well enough until the Japs made a simple system for their RPGs and wondered what the hell was wrong with everyone else. As it grew in popularity Wizards did the same for their 3rd edition, then tried to get as much money whoring out their Open Game License to every nook and cranny of the world (figuring they keep being profitable regardless of what happened, since Magic was and is their cash cow).

It worked to a surprisingly popular effect, so Wizards said "Let's make the next system mirror popular electronic RPGs! What's popular now..?" And gave us WoW 4th Edition.

5th Edition is the streamline version of something you can just play on your mobile. Which is to say it isn't bad, though, from what I've been told.


Anyway, back to Astaroth n' Antlers:

Sure it did.

[VoiceOfReasonPast]

Not sure if that proprietary stuff worked since for a good while, nobody even knew how to make a game that wasn't just a fork of D&D.

I think it's only really 3rd and 4th edition that went full autistic with modifiers, with lotsa smaller modifiers that not only come from different source, but which you want to come from those different source because bonuses of the same type don't stack (except when they do).

4th edition was also an attempt to make everyone feel more equal, since especially 3rd edition was all about the Glorious Spell Caster Master Race. That kinda blew up in their face when make the 4th edition Wizard one of the most unfocused classes around and they didn't notice their monster math was fucked up until the last monster manual (with all the previous monsters being damage sponges who don't dish out enough damage).

Though I must admit some of the whining against 4th edition was pretty fun, and they all revolve around that little suspension of disbelief that non-casters need to be super realistic, while casters can do anything because magic.
"Muh D&D is ruined because that Warlord can shout arms back on". Dude, you're fucking Barbarian can take like 15 crossbow bolts to the face

And does anyone else heard about guys going "I don't want Fighters to be able to do more than stand around and hit people because muh little brother or whoeverthefuck doesn't want anything more engaging". I'm not making that up, those exist. There's like some knockoff game called The 13th Age where this was the entire design philosphy of the Fighter and Barbarian.

[mad bum]

Thac0 was hilarious for level 1 campaigns, battles would take 20 minutes because everyone would keep missing each other because the fighter can't roll a 17 and the others can't roll 20s